Transcript | How we built the future of product | Animesh Koratana (Founder @ PlayerZero ) and Matt Kasner (GTM Leader @PlayerZero)

The transcript from my podcast with Animesh Koratana and Matt Kasner

Animesh Koratana 0:00

I think as time progresses, the line between product and engineering is going to blur and blur farther. I think the reason for that is because the best engineers are the ones who are product minded, and the best product managers. And the best product leaders are the ones who are engineering minded. And we see this all the time, right? Like the engineers were able to think about why am I doing the thing that I'm doing? And what problem is it solving can basically optimize for the outcome that really matters to the business. And the product minded people who can think engineering are the ones who can really understand the realities and the constraints of what's possible and can kind of think, within those constraints and then break them in very thoughtful ways to create products that we could have never imagined otherwise.

Max Matson 0:51

Hey, there, everyone. Welcome back to future products. This week. I've got two guests on the podcast that I know quite well. They're on a medical exam founder and CEO of player zero, the place that pays my bills, and Matt Kassner product but the thing, guys, I would thank you so much for your time, but I do think technically this is a work meeting.

Thank you for your time. Animesh the first time ever on the podcast…

Animesh Koratana 1:17

Yeah, absolutely. Everyone. My name is unabashed. Cortana, founder and CEO here at player zero been working with Matt and max. Now for Max, we've been working together for almost a year. Not a little bit more than that. And, yeah, really excited to be here.

Max Matson 1:32

So glad to have you. And for those who aren't familiar, Matt was actually the second ever guest that I had on the pod, which seems like it was about 15 years ago, a

Matt Kasner 1:43

few iterations ago. Would you mind? Yeah. I'm Matt Kasner, I do help. On the product side, I think more recently kind of shifted more towards the go to market though, depending on who you ask our product functions within go to market. So at an early stage startup, where a lot of hats but get to work, you know, every day with Max anonymous to make sure that we're building the right thing for the right people and telling the right story. So these are my, my partners in crime and making things happen and building something that hopefully people love

Max Matson 2:15

it. Amen. Yeah. 100%. So real quick, before we get into it, I just want to start by new players here on the spotlight a bit. On a mash. Would you mind giving a very quick introduction to player zero, kind of who we are what we do and in a few sentences?

Animesh Koratana 2:30

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So zero is a product quality platform. Basically, what we do is we use data and AI to basically motivate a systematic process to help product teams build and manage product quality. And to kind of dig into that a little bit more, you know, what we've realized is there's basically two or three key questions that the best product teams in the world basically answer almost in a loop. In order to build and manage product quality. The first is, what problems are happening. Second is are those problems important? And the third, and this is a really important one is basically how do we make sure that these problems never happen again, right. And this is basically what we call operational quality. And what player zero is, is basically a platform that helps manage and execute this particular process for customers.

Max Matson 3:21

Yeah, very concise, very good. Practice. That's perfect. So now that we've gotten that out of the way, would you mind telling people in a little bit more color, who you are what motivated you to start your entrepreneurship journey,

Animesh Koratana 3:41

kind of where you come from? Yeah, dude, it's funny, actually. Because growing up, I never wanted to be an entrepreneur. I grew up around it my whole life. I grew up here in Atlanta, my dad was a founder as well, he started this company called vendor me. And, yeah, I was started in our basement with him and one other guy. And so there were five years just kind of building that. And it was just extremely inspiring to watch, growing up to watch how you can kind of translate a real need out there in the world.

And you can also make money solving it right and helping people and make money at the same time. I went to Stanford also after that, and that's really where I started getting into what we call data types of systems, did research with some of my now lifelong mentors, Matteo Zarya, and Peter Bayliss, and went really deep and is trying to figure out how do we make data accessible to people. And more specifically, in kind of the domain that I helped my dad with in the past, of just around management of quality. And so this is actually research that we started off in in a lab for almost two years. Before we ended up trying to commercialize this into what now become, became player zero. And so yeah, it was it was a very long arc actually didn't think I was going to be an entrepreneur, but both as as a function of the timing. And the circumstances that we were put in, ended up getting some incredible thought partners in the form of mentors and a few now I've actually even converted into investors for a company just felt the time was right. And then the problem was deep enough, and that we actually had a meaningful enough enough solution, right to really help help our customers with that. That felt right to to start a company.

Max Matson 5:35

You mentioned that you didn't initially plan on becoming an entrepreneur. Yeah, what pushed you over the place? Dude,

Animesh Koratana 5:43

it's funny. I thought I was gonna do a PhD. And so, you know, I I've always really appreciated research. It's, it's interesting, because you basically are able to think about problems from first principles, right, with almost no expectation of commercializing what you're doing. And so the constraints of making sure that you sell to the buyer, or, you know, like, all these things are kind of gone. And you're just saying, like, let's focus on the problem, let's solve it. Right. And I think by virtue of being at Stanford, it's actually very interesting. I think difference between the way that people it's an effort to research is a lot of times, there's actually a lot of industry involvement in the research that's done.

And I think you could argue one way or another as to whether that's good or bad. But yeah, I think just doing research at Stanford ended up giving me this interesting balance of real industry need, put together with the kind of first principles nature of the thinking around research. Which is kind of directly with your question, or like, what what put me over the edge, it was realizing that the only way for us to actually solve this problem, which was, you know, I think, to put in a nutshell, it's operationalizing, product quality, the only way to really solve this problem was to create some sort of a sustainable platform around the technology. Because otherwise, it would have just always been a technology, right? Like it would have been this like Apple and the Tree of Knowledge and would have been cool, and it would have helped somebody, but it wouldn't have actually changed the way that we work. And the only way to actually do that was to create some sort of a company around that. And so that's what we did.

Max Matson 7:31

Wonderful. Yeah, I really appreciate you kind of go into depth there. That's very elucidating. Matt, kind of same question for you. We've talked a little bit about your background in the past, you always know up sitting here. Are You Psychic?

Matt Kasner 7:46

Not psychic just, you know, I think, similar to the way automation was phrasing, and I think there's when you see the way you want to spend your time and the problems that you want to solve, thinking about in a way of what's the, the fastest way, what's the most efficient way for me to make impacts. And I think, you know, every, every minute you spend working is one that you want to spend enjoying it and feeling a sense of freedom and ownership over it. And you often hear kind of, with like people, you know, working to live, and I think I don't live to work, but I think working should be an enjoyable experience. So all that to say, you know, coming out of college, starting a company, realizing how much I learned and how quickly I learned it. And when you value to somebody, and it's, you know, your baby, you've kind of seen to fruition. There's nothing like magnetic about it.

And so, you know, less of a founder role here more of a first employee and type of role. But, you know, all that being said, I still have a ton of ownership over the initiatives that, you know, we put down and strive towards. And, you know, having the trust of automation, the rest of the team to kind of drive that it's, you know, honestly, I think it's like a perfect blend of like, having, you know, some foundation setup, but also, you know, the open road in front of you. So, yeah, I think if you have asked my parents, they're, like less happy with my entrepreneurial journey, because they saw the stress of it all, but I think in that came a lot of growth. So I think if you asked me like, when I came out of college, and I had that first experience, I think the entrepreneurial slash startup way is kind of the only way that I see it, at least for now.

Animesh Koratana 9:45

It's too much fun. It's actually one thing that I that I remembered, as you were talking, Matt, and just kind of add on to what you were saying just like magnetic appeal of startups. You know, I think there's something about the way A that the work compounds on top of itself to create outcomes that you wouldn't ever really even be able to imagine in academia or really anywhere else. Right? The ability to participate and build that is, is incredible.

And you know, I think this finding places where your work can compound and creating process and structure around that is actually really interesting and exciting thing for me, both in terms of starting a company, and then also actually in our product itself, right, like figuring out how do I manage quality in a way such that the work that my product team is doing compounds over time, right is really kind of what we're trying to do it players hero, right. And that function, and to be part of that is just super, super exciting. So yeah, that's just something that that, you know, you're talking about the magnetic appeal, it's just something that I've always really appreciated about startups.

Matt Kasner 10:56

This morning, we were actually talking this something we should chat about, or like dealing with, you know, this specific question internally about how to do a certain process. And it was not gonna go into too much detail about what it is. But it was really cool, because on my drive, which was an hour to get here as a five mile drive we talked about earlier, a little frustrating. But it gave me some time to think and start to think about, okay, I have this problem, or we're facing this problem does it need internally as an organization, and then connecting the dots to how we think about building our product, that value we deliver. It's really exciting. We'll talk about it later. But that's just kind of how you start to see problem solving. You kind of see it in layers, and you see the connection points between them. And there's always a better way, right? And there's always like, operationally or with product to kind of like fine tune that. So

Max Matson 11:48

yeah, right on, I think there's a there's a lot to be said for taking things from one to 100. But there's something special about taking something from zero to one, right? That kind of creator mindset that you're able to bring to the business process. It's it's impossible to replicate. So that being said, you had mentioned your research, and actually both of you guys went to Stanford Yeah. Can we talk a little bit about that? What is, you know, being a Stanford kind of, you know, undergraduate, how did that inform the way that you go about your entrepreneurship at this point.

Animesh Koratana 12:22

So, Stanford's a really special school, and I think, to say the least, it's some incredible people, some of the smartest people I've ever met in my life. And my mentors, some of my best friends, all, all people that I met, during my couple years at Stanford, I think there's this high level structure that Stanford basically sets for you, which is, it is a land of intense and ubiquitous opportunity, with very little structure to capture it. And I think it's a, it cuts both ways. You know, I think I personally have really appreciated the fact that there's a ton of stuff to do, and you kind of get your, your pick of the litter, get to work on the problems that excite you the most and spend all of your time working on that. And so that's, that's what I really appreciated about being at Stanford, I spend most of my time kind of applying that through research. But the clubs and mentors and all those other things just help, you know, to use the word again, compound, the the outcomes and the results and learnings that you get from that. So yeah, it was it was an incredible time. And just sometimes I miss it. Sometimes more than more than sometimes.

Max Matson 13:41

What about you? What's your experience?

Matt Kasner 13:43

Yeah, so I think my money, my experience was a little bit different than on admissions, I came in, as a walk on on the football team. So to an amazing institution, my brother had gone to Stanford for four years previous as an undergrad, and then was continuing at law school there. So I kind of had familiarity there and, you know, wanting to see what football looked like in on the collegiate level. And then also, you know, want to be at one of the best academic institutions in the world. So it's kind of a no brainer. spent two years playing football was an econ degree. And really didn't like that econ degree.

And so played two years of football again, and then decided to walk away we had won the Rose Bowl. I kind of realized no, the NFL wasn't my future. But Stanford was and so you know, re evaluated what I wanted out of school changed my major major to product design. Awesome design school at Stanford. So that was like a really exciting opportunity to kind of look at that as my future. Get an engineering degree kind of flex those muscles were growing up, my dad and I would build a lot. We'd fix things, get our hands dirty, and it was cool to have a degree at a place like Stanford that allowed you to kind of be creative like that.

And start building you know, just to kind of echo on Mr. sentiment, there's the people and the opportunity. I think it's such an inspiring experience. And, you know, when I moved in my freshman year, you know, next door was like the US karate champion. And, like tendo, I think is what it's called, there's another guy down the hallway, which is like, when you have these bamboo, like, Baton things, and like, it's crazy. It's like, and it's so random. And it's like, so unique, and everybody has a unique perspectives, but they're all really driven. And they're all very goal oriented. And it's inspiring. And I think, coming out of that environment, I understand why people go and start companies out of Stanford, because you're always pushing yourself to, to grow to be better and work towards goals in ways that, you know, with too much. Too much structure can feel suffocating. So yeah, I mean, I think that was a big thing, learned a lot of discipline through football and met a lot of great people and then extended that to the academic creative world. And, yeah, the network continues to be frothy today. That's good. Yeah,

Max Matson 16:09

very cool. Very cool. And I will throw in an obligatory, go Miami University Redhawks. Moving on from there. So we've kind of established the background, right, Stanford, kind of amidst all of these great product thinkers and builders and engineers, on a mess. You talked a bit about the research. Let's zoom in there, though, right? What was that experience? Like? And how did that lead to this aha moment of, hey, we have something here that could turn into a company.

Animesh Koratana 16:36

Yeah, it was, it was actually the combination of a couple of different things. So the research that I was working on, it's the project called lit. And you know, fun, fun name. Yeah, so definitely it is it is what you're thinking about, we were in college. But yeah, so the research we were working on was basically figuring out how to take really big neural networks, compress them, and then if that make them something that's deployable at a larger scale. And, you know, when we first started on this research, it was 2018.

And so, you know, it wasn't nearly the the large language models and the pre trained models and all the things that we're seeing out there in the world today, the biggest neural network out there was maybe 100, the size of GPT. Three. And even then, actually, the the kind of scalability of these things were pretty limited. And the only people who had neural networks at large were people at Facebook, or Google and Airbnb, and these like mega mega corporations. And basically, the problem that they were seeing was, you know, let's say Pinterest, for example, that was like a tricky one that we worked with closely. Pinterest had, you know, hundreds of 1000s of images being uploaded every hour.

And for those hundreds of 1000s of images, they wanted to classify what was happening in those images. And so now you have a neural network that you need to run 1000 forward passes through, it becomes really, really expensive to do that really well. And so all we were trying to do was just make it make these, these neural networks that everyone in the world kind of had seemingly used, make those accessible to people who weren't Pinterest, right? How do we actually, you know, democratize that a little bit. At the same time, actually, my my professor Peter, he had been working on this project called macro bass. And this was actually a little bit adjacent. It wasn't kind of overlapping with this exact project. But it was basically in over large amounts of structured data, how to find correlations. And I think practically, this is this is incredibly useful, you know, thinking about, like, let's say you have a big database over every single person who bought an iPhone, right, and Apple is trying to figure out, you know, like, 18 to 24 year old males in Atlanta, Georgia, or for some reason, you know, 30 times more likely to buy an iPhone than the person next to it, right?

That's a really interesting insight to find. And it's really difficult to actually extract it because the current way of people interacting with that data is by coming up with these hypotheses. But someone has to sit down and think about it and say, Hey, I think, you know, 1824 18 to 24 year old males in Atlanta, Georgia, really liked buying iPhones, and then test that hypothesis. And what macro base was working on was kind of flipping the narrative there, right, say, let's start with the data, right? And then kind of churn through it and go and try to figure out these interesting correlations, so that we could tell narratives, right? And, you know, I think if you put the two and two together a little bit here, I think what I realized was the way we interact with data is going to change in a very fundamental way. Because the amount of compute the amount of storage and the accessibility of that compute is going to change by orders of magnitude in the next five or 10 years.

And this is like a very first principles way of just thinking about you know what like, the way we the way we as consumers, Numbers interact with data and our day to day lives is going to change in a very, very fundamental way. And we're actually seeing that a lot now with the evolution of things like chat GPT, right, four years ago, GPT could not be deployed at the scale that it is now serving the number of requests and, you know, random questions about, you know, write a poem in Shakespeare's like, format or whatever, right? Like, it's just, it wasn't, it wasn't feasible four years ago, and because computers evolved so much, and because the efficiency of neural networks has evolved so much AI and data are a lot more accessible than it used to be. Now, I think there's a second problem here, which is basically, yeah, maybe the compute and the technology is available.

But then how do you actually practically align that to solve a specific problem? Right? And I think this is where the real opportunity in AI lies, right? Which is like, what are the offshoots, right, of this kind of core technology to create real value for the way that people work? Right, and there's going to be 1,000,001 AI companies that come out. And I think, you know, we're getting past the hype cycle now, to a place where AI companies are going to be evaluated purely on the value itself that they bring, rather than the hype itself. And I think that was kind of the second part of what I thought was really interesting in, you know, the macro base work and the the industry work that we've done in the past and AI, because I think we had a little bit of a forward insight in how AI is actually practical used in these larger kind of institutions.

And so, you know, a lot of technology a player zero and stuff like that, you know, I got an inside look at the way that, you know, companies like Pinterest, or Airbnb, and Facebook and Microsoft, and all these companies who, you know, compared to us, or compared to, you know, the average company out there is a decade ahead, right, the technology and the tooling and the processes, and that's what helps them stay ahead. And so, yeah, that that insight, the visibility, put together with an understanding of the compute and how AI is evolving, put us give basically give us an information advantage to start the company.

Max Matson 22:14

Right on, it's like all the kind of factors can emerge to create the possibility of this kind of roadmap of quality.

Animesh Koratana 22:20

Yeah, yeah. And so like, I think there's, there's a second story here as well, which actually has nothing to do with research. And I think is actually equally interesting about why why product quality was specifically the direction that we ended up taking our company in. And this actually starts a lot a lot earlier. So I mentioned my dad was a was a founder, right? And he started this company called vendor mate, started in our basement when I was in third grade. And, you know, every night, kind of go into the basement and be like, Hey, Dad, like, I can help. Right? And third grader, like, what can I actually do it right?

So my dad made me his QA tester, right. It's like, not even a QA tester. Actually, that's, that's over defining what I was doing. I was just click monkey, right? Like, I was literally like, made a big checklist and said, like, Alright, go, make sure you click around, right, and just verify that certain things are working and the things that, you know, I could cognitively understand when I was in third grade, and I kept doing that, like, I kept doing that through middle school. And it really wasn't until I was in high school, almost like six or seven years later that they hit an inflection where they actually started hiring more on engineering and product.

And the team that I was working with, was no longer my dad and CEO. It was now a team of like, 30 or 40 engineers. And even then, right, I knew there was there was a short period of maybe like four or five months where I was still doing testing, right, I was still giving the thumbs up at the end of every single release. To say, yeah, like, this thing is good to go out. And, you know, I think like the arrogant, high school self, you know, like, if you were to ask me in high school, like, why am I still the one kind of giving you the thumbs up for every single release? It was, I probably would have told you because like, I knew what I was doing.

But I didn't, right, like hindsight, like I had no idea what I was doing. Like, I had no idea how to build product, I had no idea how to code. I had no idea right whatsoever, that I was still there, right? And I was there for a reason. And you know, reflecting back, the only reason I was there doing the thing that I was was because I was in the room maybe five years before that. Right? Like I was in the basement with my dad, I was in the basement with my with with his CEO, I understood the sales, I understood the marketing, understood what was being sold, why it was being sold, what the product was supposed to achieve what was supposed to look like, and then show the customers, right, really more than anything.

And if you put all that together, that was an amount of concentrated institutional knowledge that lived in this, you know, ninth graders head that would have taken months to years to kind of, you know, distill down to anyone else. And so product quality is so Something that is actually more a function of that institutional knowledge than it is even of technical prowess, right or of intelligence. And figuring out how to kind of distill that down to create a process that is self improving and compounding, right is the kind of the the problem that we were trying to solve at player zero. And it became very clear through the research and through the AI work, and all those things that I was doing was the design and interface and the way that problems are going to be solved, it's going to be with data and AI in the future. And the only way to actually kind of take this institutional knowledge and make it operationally useful for product and engineering teams would be through this mechanism that is being created right now. Right. And so that's why kind of the why now. Could be answered with player zero, right? It's I don't I don't think what we're building could have been possible. Three years ago, four years ago.

Max Matson 25:59

Absolutely. Sounds like you've created that 14 year old version of yourself as a product, literally. Yeah,

Animesh Koratana 26:05

yeah. That's that's exactly what I'm trying to do. Yeah.

Max Matson 26:09

Back to you. What kind of brought you on, what was that? Like? When did you meet on a mash? And wouldn't you know that this was kind of a horse that you wanted to? You wanted to bet on?

Matt Kasner 26:19

Yeah, yeah. So let's see, what was it three years ago, was running programs and customer experience at Starbucks, which is a nonprofit accelerator for Stanford startups. And at that time, I got to be an account manager for a certain amount of companies and automation was coming through as a student in residence, like an early, early startup. And I got to be his account manager. So that's how we initially got to me and actually remember, the day we met was, like, my first week there, or something, and I was put in super early and I got put in charge of like, running the orientation. And, you know, I'm up there given like, the spiel, and I'm trying to figure it out. And then there was automatic who all the students in the room was, you can tell had that that way about him for even being well, you're a sophomore at that time. You could just tell like, the level of care.

And also you could see, you know, having a dad as an entrepreneur like that stuff, like you could feel it in somebody when they ask questions, the types of questions they ask. So, you know, definitely has gravity about him. And we stayed in touch. And then I became his account manager a little bit later, actually. And, you know, I kind of saw his maturation as an entrepreneur and was listening in on a couple are keeping tuned to a couple of deals he was working on at the time, and would follow up on that, after he kind of worked out of the program, and that there was a point where it had been about two, or 2x. And I was burned to edge a little bit again. And, you know, I went to Starbucks, because I wanted to be around startups. But I also knew mentally, I needed to take a break since my last startup, to kind of just center myself and refocus and you know, get some ducks in order in life and everything like that. And so again, was kind of itching.

And then I had mentioned on a mesh, I like an idea or two that I was like more than on I told them I was, you know, throwing some some paper towel at the wall. And then I think at that point on a mesh, he either realized that, like I was looking and like interested and then kind of just started talking and he was at that beginning and accelerated very quickly of his fundraising timeline. It went from Hey, like, I'm gonna need to bring in a product person. And I'm like, okay, he needs a Yeah, might be a couple of months. And then he texted me like the next Tuesday. He's like, Hey, this is going way faster than I thought it was. Can we hop on a call. And you know, this was in the middle of COVID. We my fiance or girlfriend at the time now fiance, we're living in central California, this lake house kind of sequestered and we were looking for something new, a new adventure. And you know, Atlanta was the place where automation was building this company. And we came out here to visit and automation said great things about it. And honestly, it's an amazing place. And the opportunity to build with someone like automatic. I think you kind of realized when you talk to somebody when you see their excitement and just the way they go about their business. Is this someone who I can continue to learn from and I think that was the biggest thing is can I grow with this person? At the helm? And I think it was very clear very early like Yes. And so you know, all the ducks lined and or stars or whatever you want to call them and kind of ducks like that better. Yeah, so then kind of made the leap and I've been here with for two and a half years since. Oh,

Animesh Koratana 29:51

man, that was. Yeah, that was probably one of my most exceptional hires I've made just to say that directly to you know, I think when I when I first talked to you like I think one of the hardest things and entrepreneurship is like figuring out who you are, and like what the shadow of who you are is. I think there's actually like a Lenny's thing on this. When he's newsletter, by the way, it's, I guess, free free promo for them

it's, it's, it's a great, great, great place to learn about product. And it's been really kind of helpful for me, but they have this concept of like, you know, like superpowers in the shadows of superpowers. I think like one thing that I think that that I definitely need, is this. Like disciplined, kind of operational way of thinking about problems. It was very difficult for me actually, like, I've bounced off the walls. And I think, you know, Matt can tell you firsthand, right, like, every single pitch I gave is a different pitch. Right? And it's different, right? Like, I'm pretty sure like today, when I was introducing player zero, it was different than the words that I used yesterday and our color. Yeah, right. Right. And, you know, figuring out how to organize that, to create a discipline at the company. Something that Matt was just from day one incredible app. I saw him do it at Starbucks, that I think he's been doing an awesome job here to just help make that happen for us

Max Matson 31:27

what degree real structure building, that's so critical in these early stages, when you're building something from zero to have a person or just even like an organizational mindset of like, we're going to keep organized, we're going to make sure that we're learning. And that's something that you've always been really great about is taking those learnings and making sure that we're incorporating it into the future where we do, which I think kind of ties back into. Yeah, yeah. Fantastic. So automatically, now that we've heard the origin story, how it all got started, what's the journey been like?

Animesh Koratana 31:59

It's been a ton of fun. You know, I think what we've realized is, it's a different thing to own the task versus owning the problem. And to kind of dig into that, what that actually means for our product, our business and our customers. When we started, we actually started, we were called Test Scrum is a different company back then. And the kind of core technology that we built this company on was basically the ability to understand user behavior and customer behavior really, really well. And the idea was, if you understand the customer behavior really well, you could basically simulate it, you can recreate that behavior in the form of a test. And, you know, we talk to a lot of these these product leaders and engineers and hundreds of hundreds of people. And we ask them, you know, like, what is your biggest challenge to managing and operationalizing? Product quality? Right? And their answer very, very quickly was any better testing? Right?

And so that's what we built, right? Like we built a automated testing platform. But the challenge, actually, months after that was like, how do we get people to actually buy this? Right? And this is one of the hardest things like the product market fit challenge, right? For any, any startup and hang, what we realized was testing was one facet of many other things that actually solved the problem of product quality. What Our Customers have told us was, you know, this is this a lot of times reminds me of that story from like Henry Ford, right? Where it's like, if you ask enough people what they want, they'll tell you, they want a faster horse. Right. And testing was basically the fastball worse, right? The problem of product quality is much more far reaching, right? It is a problem of institutional knowledge. It's a problem of figuring out how to connect customers back into the way that we actually build product. It's a problem with empathy. And it's a problem with data.

And so this is a it's much more far reaching problem. And it has almost outcome defining differences, right? How come defining effects on the business that you have, right, like, and then just a quick tangent there, right? Like that's the difference between like Apple and Android, right. And that's the difference between like Mo's and Chipotle for those of you are in Atlanta, right? Like, it's the difference between like, most buying decisions and what we choose to keep buying. And so Quality Matters a ton. But testing is is like one very kind of shallow task. And what we needed to do with player zero for our customers, was own the problem of product quality. And the journey to your question Question Max says is the journey over the last two half years of building player zero, has been figuring out how do we take ownership of the problem of product quality for our customers. And that's why it's been really really fun, right? Because the better we do that, the more value we create for our cars Farmers and the Better Business and the better product we are. Right? So Ton of fun and learning every day. Yeah. Fantastic.

Max Matson 35:09

Matt, would you speak a little bit to kind of the process of identifying who that person is? How we kind of went about that process when we were making the big switch?

Matt Kasner 35:21

Yeah, we talked about this a lot internally. There's this idea of the idea maze. And they're doing it right is allocating enough time to talk to the people you need to talk to, to understand the signal that's coming back, right? So early on going out with a product and test gram and hearing all the this is great, but then no one buying, right. I think we talked about this now, like getting to know is important and understanding when you're gonna get pushed back, and are people willing to pay for it? Right. And it really just came down to like we talked about before, like, creating structure and operation around talking to people getting signal going back to the drawing board, testing iterating, and then bringing something to them and keeping them lined up, right. And I, I do want to like, give a nod to all the people that have helped us today, we have a great community of product leaders of engineering leaders who have offered their time to really give us transparent feedback on what we're doing well than what we are.

These are people we book every other week. And we're sitting down with them and saying, Hey, here's the progress we've made, and, and just kind of hearing their perspective on Is this enough or not? Right? And that. So I think that's one level. And I think the other one is you also have to go cold, right? And then you go cold to people that you've never talked to who aren't bias to your journey, and saying like, okay, you've never heard of, like, any preconceived, I have no preconceived notion of what this product is supposed to do. I'm gonna tell you what it does right now. And will you pay for it? Right. And that's where you start with the real estate law is when that clear message just rings true, that you see their eyes light up, and when when you hit the certain like, like inflection point of your presentation or your conversation. And then it's really just like, how do I get this? Right, like, what's the next step? And so I think that in the age of chat, GBT, you can do some discovery work. But there's nothing like sitting down in front of people and booking real meetings with real humans and, and just, again, trying, failing, going back. And that's why it's been, you know, two and a half years of us doing that, because put in the work.

Max Matson 37:40

So we've been kind of walking around it and hinting that this kind of, you know, sea change in the way that we've been doing our work the way that we've been building our platform, right. And I think, not to build up too much hype, but it's something that I'm incredibly excited about, because I think that what you said about that light kind of filling in people's eyes when you're telling them about the value. It's something that I've seen with this new iteration of the product that I haven't really ever seen from a product before. So that being said, big moment, would you mind talking about, you know, the nuclear zero? How we've kind of refined our approach to fulfilling our mission and how we think the future players heroes gonna look?

Matt Kasner 38:24

It's a loaded question.

Animesh Koratana 38:32

I'll try to be succinct. So you know, what, what we realized in the kind of core operations of product quality is that there's these three basic questions, right, and this is kind of what I talked about earlier, where there's what problems are happening. Are those problems important? Then after that, you know, there's an offshoot, they're like, Okay, it's important, let's go fix it. Right. And then after that, then the third part is, once you've detected the problem, fix the problem. How do we make sure that it's never happening again?

Now, this is actually something that we've learned, you know, as Matt said, from talking to some of the world's best product and engineering teams, right, and watching how they do it, it's just night and day different than the way that, you know, when we first started out, even internally that we were doing it, right. And this process is so difficult to kind of operationalize and, and build from scratch, that was very clear that there's a desire for people to achieve quality. And there is a desire to actually kind of put, you know, investment, right, both in terms of process, but also in terms of your, you know, partner dollars to actually help achieve it, because it creates some very, very substantial differences in the relationship your customers have with your product. Now to kind of talk tangibly about what player zero does and how it kind of It actually works is, you know, we've we've basically built a really clean workflow around those three questions around the kind of beat of the drum of releases, right now product engineering teams, they, they work towards releases, they get the release out, and they will react to changes in that release, or in changes to their customers as a function and output of that release.

And what PlayerZero, I think it's doing really, really well, for our current customers, and it's kind of far off of the product, is help manage the story around those three questions about the releases that you're basically putting out there. And so tangibly, you know, you can very easily ask the question of what are my customers? What problems are my customers running into? As an output of this release? Right? Why is it happening? And which issues are actually getting in the way? And are those issues important enough that they're actually changing the outcomes of my product? Right? And so that answers those first two questions really, really concisely, and it does it by basically hooking into product data that you already have. Right? So it hooks into your code, it hooks into your project management, your ticketing, and basically tries to tell this cohesive story about, you know, this many people are complaining about something similar. Here's what they're saying.

And here's the code that changed recently, that tells us why we think that this release is the root cause. And then there's the other half, right, which is how do we make sure it never happens again, and that's that institutional knowledge problem, right, which is, once we basically realized that this thing has happened, making sure that for an upcoming release, right, where let's say, I'm changing the subscription billing flow, right. The last time I touched similar code, or the last time I changed similar areas of my product. What were the biggest risk points, right, what broke the last time I touched similar code? And how important of it how important was at that time, and making sure that you can kind of recall the right moments in your past? Right. I mean, we've been building this for two and a half years. And I think that in the large, you know, arc of businesses, that's nothing, right. Like, we're a tiny, tiny company, compared to Google, which has been around for 20 years.

And imagine the institutional knowledge across 100,000 employees, right. And every company in between, right, there's a ton of institutional knowledge that gets accumulated as you basically build a release product, and figuring out how to basically become that memory bank for the past, for all the things that are broken in the past, and why they mattered and how they were connected to the work that people were really doing. And then for incremental release, basically, recalling the right things to say, here's, among the 1000, things that are broken in the last five years, here's the five things that you should really just keep an eye out for, because this is what matters to your customers. And here's what happened in the past, basically, creates a checklist, right? And checklists are like the most simple form of process that really helps manage this quality going forward. And, you know, the more you do it, the better you get at it.

And it's incredible, like it's it because it can just compounds, right? It creates very significant positive effects on your overall product quality. And in fact, actually, what we found is it actually even helps you build and release faster, right. And so this kind of trade off that a lot of people see between product quality and velocity. We've almost kind of demystified right are like we've debunked it, there is a way to actually build fast and with quality. And it just takes focus. And our inner product is really, really good at kind of bringing that focus in a very natural, incremental and adoptable way. And so that's what that's what layer zero is. And that's what the promise of the product is. That's what we've seen, you know, being achieved with our customers today. And kind of over the course of the next, you know, six months year, like, we want to deepen that. Just keep listening to our customers make it better. And then, you know, go farther and that promise to say, how do we help you check things off that checklist? Right? How do we go farther, to just, you know, help manage quality for you?

Max Matson 44:22

I love it. It's a it's solving so many problems. And because you've got one hand, the data silos, everything's in a different department, everything's in a different tool. We bring all that together. And kind of as a byproduct, almost, you create this source of truth, right? That source of, well, hey, maybe we had a dependency on this person because they were the keeper of the truth before but

Animesh Koratana 44:46

we found that like, a lot of this stuff lives in people's heads, right? Like that's the 14 year old mate, right? It lived in my head. And it has nothing to do with the person's technical prowess. for whatever it just like they've been there for that much time, and so they remember it. But humans are imperfect. Like, we can't, we can't remember this stuff, right? Like, there's only so much. And yeah, so like figuring out how to operationalize that has been, has been awesome to kind of see with our, with our customers,

Matt Kasner 45:18

what, what they want to add there, which maybe it's a byproduct or a separate outcome of that, that, you know, the institutional knowledge living in people's heads is that means decision making. The data that goes into decision making also lives in a person's head, right. And when you look at product in their relationship with engineering and making decisions as it relates to quality, there's a ton of friction that exists today in that relationship, right, a lot of a lot of product, people sit at the I need to help focus our engineering efforts in a certain direction. And in order to make that decision, they use a very small amount of data, if any, and a lot of gut. And what happens is when a person makes decisions like that, and you have amazing engineers who want to build the right thing for the right people, and really deliver value, or the disconnect as to why am I building this?

And what's actually like going to move the needle for the customer from the customer themselves, right? Instead, it's because my Pm is telling me that this is what's important, or my engineering leader, instead of saying, hey, add voice of the customer mentality of like, that's what exists today for companies, right? It's like, How can I bring the voice of the customer to my engineering team to help them understand why we're building things. And you also can view this as like an operational way to bring that into your decision making. And to be the reason or like the explanation for here's why we're focused on this quality or working on this task on the checklist, because we saw this last time, and it's all there in data. And it makes a cohesive experience across product and engineering that otherwise sees a lot of friction, and can be frustrating, especially when there are tight deadlines, and you just keep packing more growth features, but also wanting to maintain quality and eliminate waste, right. So that's another really cool thing we've seen as an output of bringing a product like this and an institutional knowledge source for helping that decision making.

Max Matson 47:30

Totally I love that you mentioned kind of the dichotomy there between product and engineering, right? That's something that we hear a lot is kind of that friction that you mentioned, it's because both kind of teams are speaking these two different languages, right, you've got the technical, and you've got the business motivations. So what players are effectively doing here and getting these two teams to speak the same language, right? Language quality language, customer? Now, I do have fun for you guys, though. What is your kind of hottest team on the product engineering dynamic?

Matt Kasner 48:07

Aggregated for this? I mean, I think that that kind of the kind of nods to it, I think what you're starting to see in some public forums is more focused for product management roles at organizations. Right. And you have some people are Pm is like the founder of their team for the entrepreneur that leads their team in the right direction. And other ones are, you know, what might say like, they are basically the microphone, or the the megaphone for business to basically say, here's what we should build. And what I think is interesting, you see Airbnb focusing more on PMMs, I think it's Uber or someone else focusing more on like turning product managers more engineering, right, and then bringing up different roles to kind of so instead of having to have a product manager be both growth and quality engineering, maintenance, whatever it might be.

Like, I think that over time, I don't know, if this is a hot take, you're gonna have less ambiguity as it relates to what a product manager is. And it's kind of B, you have a growth product manager, and you have like an engineering product manager. And I don't know, unless you're maybe at a 10 person company like us, if you're ever going to bridge those. And I think our product is a way to kind of focus in for that engineering, bridging into the business related outcomes. It's going to kind of be that translation layer. So not necessarily a hot topic because it's already starting to happen in the industry a little bit but it'll be very interesting thing to watch. And it's an it's been a bit a bit painful for product managers as they are today. But I think it's necessary growth for like optimizing the right things.

Animesh Koratana 50:00

I think as time progresses, the line between product and engineering is going to blur and blur further. I think the reason for that is because the best engineers are the ones who are product minded, and the best product managers. And the best product leaders are the ones who are engineering minded. And we see this all the time, right? Like the engineers are able to think about why am I doing the thing that I'm doing? And what problem is it solving can basically optimize for the outcome that really matters to the business. And the product minded people who can think engineering are the ones who can really understand the realities and the constraints of what's possible and can kind of think, within those constraints and then break them in very thoughtful ways to create products that we could have never imagined otherwise, I think figma is a great example of this actually, as a product. Right? It's, it's some really cool technology under the hood. Right with like web assembly, and like all these kinds of things.

And Dylan field, you know, when and his co founder, together, we're actually able to think about like, what experience can be changed, right, because of this technology and the constraints and the problem that we're actually trying to solve. Right. And so I think over time, this, this line is gonna get blurred further. And further. I think the other kind of trend that contributes to this is, is just the rise of generative AI. With a lot of the most basic, I would say, like junior level developers can be replaced with GAP copilot, right? And so the expectation, and I've already seen this happening in marketing, right? It was like, the expectation isn't just write code. It's write good code. That's also right problem. And so now, you know, the mindset shifting to, I need fewer engineers, but those engineers need to be rock solid, right? Like, they need to be able to think about the problem. And they need to be able to think about what the outcome should really look like, and the customer and all those kinds of things. And so as more and more of like the grunt work, gets automated away. It's going to force I think, product engineering teams alike, to basically think about their customer, and then what really matters more. And so as that happens, more and more, I think, I think they'll converge to actually the same responsibility.

Max Matson 52:14

Right? Uh huh. Yeah, I can totally see that. It makes a lot of sense kind of given the trends that you you've mapped out there. So to throw it back first, we talked a little bit about Atlanta. Right, coming back to your start the company. What does building an Atlanta building a community in Atlanta and specifically being in tech Atlanta mean to you as somebody who's originally from here?

Animesh Koratana 52:36

Yeah, well, I grew up here. Like, I've been a part of the startup community my whole life. And it's given me so much, you know, I think we're in a TTC, by the way, and ATDC is also where men are made started. And so I was in diapers, like, just got out of diapers, no runner running, running these halls, yeah, third grader diapers. But I was like, you know, just got out of diapers. So just a graduated past it. When I was running these halls for the first time. And got to watch how these companies kind of progressed and evolved and matured. It's given me so much, and it's taught me so much.

So I'm one slight, very grateful to to be a part of this community and give back to it. The second thing is, I think the the Atlanta startup community is totally underrated. And I think when a lot of times people will see or think about, like, you know, unicorn, fast growth kind of startups, there's that they immediately think about the Bay Area. And granted, there's a ton of really cool innovation in companies that are coming out of there. But I think what's really unique about a lot of these Atlanta companies is on average, they tend to do better. And two, on average, they tend to have a really disciplined focus on the unit economics of the business. Right? They tend to be real businesses, and less moonshots. And, you know, my education and my mentors and my all these, well, most of my friends are out in the bay. And, you know, I think we've been very fortunate to kind of straddle both, right, I think our the idea that we're working on is is a really big idea. It's a it's a swing for the fence, and it's a, it's, if we're successful, we're able to change the way that people work. But on the other side, we're also building a business, right and a business need to bring real value it needs to be profitable. And we want to do both. And so I think being in Atlanta with the kind of background that we have, I think is exactly the right place to be. Yeah.

Max Matson 54:52

So to both of you guys but Matt first, kind of, you know, coming up in product and you got products so heavily Knee? Who were some of your main inspiration and go to people when you're looking to kind of buckle down and reinforce your learning?

Matt Kasner 55:07

Yeah. So this is an interesting question. I think there are some, you know, industry standard type answers like Marty Kagan, that you can always look to because he writes great books. And they're very intuitive. It's especially for early people getting into product management. But the, what I've learned about being a dynamic product person is you have to be multifaceted, right? You have to be able to do a lot of things really well. And kind of straddle like we talked about, like engineering and business. And so I kind of want to take this question actually a little bit different, where there's three kind of main components I see that I really like to strive for. And the first one is being a great interviewer, and active listener. Right. And I think, you know, David Letterman is someone I've always looked up to, he does a great job. He did a great job in the Late Show in his new series, he knows how to balance listening, but also interjecting when necessary when you find something really valuable in the nugget and zooming in on that, and then expanding.

And I think there's a lot of that, and being a great product person where you find these insights, and then you dig, right, and then you expand and you dig. And I think he's done that really well over the course of his career. I think the second thing is, is being great at empathy, being empathetic, it's tough, it can be learned. But it's a skill that over time, you honed to be a better product person to sit in the shoes of the person that you're building for, and the people around you and the engineers on the other side of the table. And I think that the biggest one, there's Brene Brown, love her stuff, she has great Netflix series. Also dare to lead a great, great novel. And then the third, that I this is a little bit of a zag. Well, as a as a foundational piece of product management, being iterative and malleable and throwing ideas at the wall with failure, I think is a is a really important aspect to just like continuing to build great things. So we've done that here for two and a half years. And the really look up to for this are actually coming.

So I just finished boards. It's the Martin book, highly recommend it talks about his journey, he actually went a completely different route for comedians, right. He went into film, how was the first I think platinum record. And that was, that's a really cool kind of deep dive into who he is. And there's this other experience that I had when I was living in Los Angeles. And we went to this comedy club in Santa Monica, it was kind of in a back alley. It was a really cool, cool setup. And we're sitting there watching some beat, you know, comedians, just kind of faceplant, and all of a sudden, you know, there's like a murmur. And we're sitting in the front row, right? And these are like, $10 tickets, and it's me and some friends at the time and, and the lady moderator comes up, he was, hey, I, like just want to let you know, this happens sometimes, when people come in, like, please don't have your phone out, please, like, be behave, and up walks, Adam Sandler. And we're sitting there in the front row of this tiny club. And he walks up to wear like sweatpants. And like, I think you might have had a beanie on. But you know, you've seen his swag before. Like, it's kind of, yeah, he's, he's awesome. But what I took away from that was he stood up there with these pieces of yellow lined paper and legal paper, and they're so crumpled up. And he just started going the jokes.

And some of them were so bad. I was just like, giddy laughing. So like, everything is funny to me. But you can see the look on his face where he would mumble to have some art like that to work. Right. And he throw it to the side. It's like he was just getting up there and trying and I think that's something I've heard of all Comedians, is their willingness just to like, throw it all out there, have a tough skin, and then just keep moving forward, find what sticks. And I think there's a lot of that and being a product leader is just being like, Hey, this is all part of the process. Right? So that's how I break that. And I think it's important to find people you look up to who are masters of their craft and other areas, and then try to relate that to how can I handle situations in my craft?

Max Matson 59:15

Oh, that's, that's fantastic. I love the parallels.

Matt Kasner 59:18

It's cool. Man can hope to

Animesh Koratana 59:23

Oh, yeah. So repeat the question.

Max Matson 59:30

So who's your product people? The outlets, media. I know, you mentioned many already, that you look to win. And you are an interesting case. Because you straddle the line between I mean, basically every department right engineering, DCM product, you're thinking about all of that. When you're really thinking about the product build process, though. What does that kind of look like me turn to you?

Animesh Koratana 59:51

Yeah, I mean, I don't think my answer is nearly as articulated as, as Matt's but for me, it's it's surrounding myself with people who are We're in the trenches with me. And so that means, one, you know, I think having a fantastic team, you know, grateful for you guys, and also surrounding myself with other founders. And I think this is, we've been really fortunate to have some really incredible investors. I mentioned Dylan field earlier, you know, Dylan, founder of figma, right, a product that we really, really look up to.

And, you know, it's helped influence the way that we've actually built our product. The founders of Databricks, the founders of Dropbox, Zynga. And let's go on, but like, you know, just being around these people hearing the way that they think, and their fearlessness towards, as is a theme that Matt brought up as well, right, like the fearlessness towards new ideas. And being very practical, and focused at proving the kind of core parts of those theses and the hypotheses that come from it. That's product people and the best founders. There's, by the way, I think a lot of the best founders are product people by nature. They're just, they're obsessive about doing that over and over and over again. And so being around it and watching other people do it is kind of what gives me the energy to keep doing it and get better at it over time.

Max Matson 1:01:14

Well, that's great answers. I didn't think we talked about

it's really so I do want to ask you guys just because, you know, it is an alchemist, right. What's one misconception about AI? That you want to go ahead and clarify for the world definitively?

Matt Kasner 1:01:41

Oh, well, it's gonna take some jobs. So I just want to I don't think that's a misconception. I don't, you know, through time, we've had these phases of recalibration. When new technologies come into the world, the internet, right, that like, disrupts your way of being, and there will be a lot of jobs that maintain because maybe they're a little bit harder to automate through AI. But there will be a lot that it does disrupt. But I guess, where I would push back is, there will always be new lines of work a new opportunity out there for people who are getting displaced due to AI. And I think it falls on communities to really say, Hey, what are the opportunities that live for people with certain skill sets? And how do they continue to grow and give them the tools they need to succeed? So depending on who you talk to you across the country, some people will say it's the it's the taking, taking the jobs, but I think that it's just kind of this next wave and being malleable and being okay with change. Not uncomfortable, but I think it's kind of necessary right now. Yeah.

Animesh Koratana 1:03:06

Yeah, I mean, I think my, my hot take is kind of in a similar vein. Yeah, AI is going to take certain jobs. But I think on average, what it's going to do is level up our economy and our workforce. You know, 100 years ago, knowing how to type wasn't a requirement, but now it is. And I think knowing how to use AI, maybe 50 years from now is going to be the equivalent of knowing how to use Word, right, it's one of the most kind of, it's going to be a basic part of how we work, the introduction of AI, into the workforce and into Problem Management. As you know, I think I think now all of a sudden, computers can participate with humans in owning the problem, rather than helping expedite a specific task.

And I think this is the shift, we're gonna see a lot and in the products that are coming out there, where they're no longer saying, Oh, this is something that a human does. Let's go and try to make it, you know, 20% Faster, they're going to say, let's go do 80% of the work, and let the human do the 20% of work that they can really contribute to. And so this is, I guess, less like a misconception and more so like, practically what you can do about it is, I think, think about what you're really good at, and what you really bring to the table. And chances are the thing that thing is not something that's going to be replaced by AI, right? Because if it's like, oh, I can, you know, type really fast. Like that's probably not like what you're really good at doing. Right? And so figuring out what that thing is that you really bring to the table and leaning into that is, I think how, in a very generic sense how we can basically stay ahead of AI as a workforce and not be replaced. Basically.

Max Matson 1:05:01

All right. And I love both of those responses. And I just want to highlight. It's something I think it's really important, right as for AI leaders and people who are building an AI to recognize right, some of the societal impacts that it will have. But to contextualize it within the reality of I think typing is a perfect example. Right? I talked about it a good amount comparing AI to typewriters. But you really do forget the scribe used to be a job, right? There were people putting in resumes.

Animesh Koratana 1:05:28

And yeah, those kinds of jobs, like, you know, I think will definitely get replaced. Right. 100%. But that's a very small percentage of the workforce. Right.

Max Matson 1:05:36

Exactly. So all that being said, I do want to ask one final question with regards to Tech in general. So both of you fellows are specifically, right. We're not sponsored, but they should send me a free one at minimum. Would you guys ever explained that in implants? I'm talking like brain interfaces, cybernetics, new limbs, things like that.

Animesh Koratana 1:06:05

I don't that I like my brain. I like my brain. And I like not having the entire internet being downloaded into it all the time. Yeah. Oh, man. All right. Slippery slope. Slippery slope? Indeed. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I don't know if I would, in my lifetime have a brain implant. But I do think the prospect of it is pretty cool. And, you know, I think the same way that iPhones were, were commonplace for us growing up, you know, for for our children. You know, things like that, like their interfaces to technology will be different than rectangles with screens on them. And so I'm very excited to see what that's going to be. And I helped I don't have to drill a hole in my head to make that happen. Yeah.

Matt Kasner 1:07:04

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I got my last one. Yeah, I wouldn't do a hole in my brain. I think the brain is a sacred, sacred. There are there are some really, like, really interesting studies coming out about being able to like necessarily program the brain and optimize certain things, which I think are really interesting, I think, yeah, putting a chip in the brain and optimizing a lot of stuff is a dangerous kind of place to go. That being said, I I do believe I mean, I have, we'll see how my knees last I played football in college. So like, maybe I would throw on a couple like cybernetic like legs or something. If my knees were just broke, my brain still functioning, I think that's kind of the most important thing. And if I can augment the rest of my body, but I will send the oops side of things. And it's a huge part of my day. I look up every day, after 10 minutes, I wake up, and then it'll process and they'll tell me, Hey, how's my sleep. And yesterday, I was driving into the office. And I could feel my energy levels were better. And I hadn't looked at my whoop yet. And I was like, I bet I had like a great recovery. And I look and it was like the best I've had in two weeks. And my HRV, which is basically measures Heart Rate Variability during your sleep, like was as good as it's been in a long, long time.

And then I started to root cause this funny, I started thinking about our product product that smells like I started to root cause like it what did I do differently yesterday that I didn't do the day before. And you know, I close my computer at a certain time I ate within a certain time range. So my like, say you want to have two hours before you go to bed after you have your last meal. And I went with that. I also just had like a great conversation with my fiance and was kind of off the screens. And you know, I took that as learning. And then last night, I did the same thing. And my recovery was great. And I think that's the type of stuff that like, fuels me because I'm, like, so much more optimized when I kind of understand what I'm doing right and what I'm doing wrong, and then continuing to zoom in to the things that I can do right. So that I can be better for the people around me. Because it's it's rad. I really like it's addicting. So but yeah, no brain implants for Matt. Just throw it on my wrist. As long as I can take it off whenever I want. Battery. There you

Max Matson 1:09:23

So guys, this has been a joy. Thank you so much for coming on. Future product. Where can they find you?

Animesh Koratana 1:09:36

Where can they find this? Oh, you know, LinkedIn, Twitter. I'm fairly active on LinkedIn. I'm trying to get more active on Twitter. But I definitely scroll through that more than I would like to so LinkedIn automatic Cortana. Twitter, I think is a Cortana. Thank you, but thank you so much. Thank you, Max. Yeah,